Welcome to Freemasonry Universal
The Newest and Freshest website for Freemasonry, for Freemasons and everything masonic has just been launched. Freemasonry Universal is set to be the #1 site for Freemasonry and it doesn't aim to be alone.
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The site currently is a shell, some standard information on Freemasonry, some background on Freemasonry Universal and it's network but just look at the index of Freemasonry Universal and you will see what is set to come!!
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The network section details how you can be a part of Freemasonry Universal, although the request to join is still not available.
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Bondi
the On-Line Freemason
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11 comments:
okay, i have a question, since you seem so open.
does masonry teach that you should obey your church/temple/religion above or below the lodge?
That's an easy one, faith comes first.
To quote the United Grand Lodge of England
"Without interfering in religious practice it expects each member to follow his own faith, and to place above all other duties his duty to God, by whatever name He is known. Its moral teachings are acceptable to all religions. "
Our obligation actually places duty to Freemasonry 4th, behind God, Law of the Land, family and dependants.
very good, as it should be.
what i don't get, however, is why do lodges accept Catholics as members when it directly contradicts their faith? that just strikes me as wrong, perhaps ye can help.
You need to look at this from Freemasonry's side.
If they excluded Catholics it would be going against it's principles with respect to accepting men of all faiths, it would be discrominating.
Also, if it was to say Catholics cant join because of their faiths teaching, it would also be going against it's tenent NOT to teach religious doctrine.
It is a fine line granted, but Freemasonry does not teach religion, does not offer interpretation of faith, and leaves the religion itself to teach it's followers about it's rules etc If it were to prevent catholics to join, that would be "promotion of a specific faiths teachings".
I hope that makes sense and you understand what I mean?
Then you also need to look at the fact that it really does depend on who you ask as to whether membership should be allowed or not.
As I understand it, the doctrine of faith regarding catholics, keeps going back and forth on this issue, one cardinal removed Freemasonry specifically, allowing it's members to join as long as the lodge didn't promote teachings of faith that contradicted the church, which it didn't. As it stands now, a catholic would not be excommunicated, but prevents them from receiving holy communion. As yet I have yet to hear of a catholic freemason being recevied communion! Also there are many prominent catholics who are freemason, who not only receive communion, but actually give it.
So you see the confusion, as much as it is written, it is not enforced in anyway as far as most catholics who are freemasons are cocnerned. It is somewhat treated, from my experience, like the historic laws which are still laws but never enforced, you know the ones where it is illegal to walk your dog backwards on the high street at noon, etc
I am no expert on Catholic faith, but I do not know of anything in Freemasonry that goes against the church OTHER than it does not teach Catholicsm is the ONLY WAY, ONE TRUE FAITH etc, however saying that although it accepts men of all faith it DOES NOT EVER teach religion so it DOESN'T teach that it isn't either.
This to me is the problem, it doesn't state Catholicsm is the one true faith, but this should not be an issue because it doesn't teach about religion anyway. Unless any other group, book club, football club, AA group is also off limits to catholics as they also do not teach Catholicsm is the only way...
okay, i can see that. so masonry respects its own tenants more than it does the individual's church?
yes, yes yes I've heard all the regular stuff about catholic masons. there are also Wiccans who claim to be Christians. I am not Catholic myself, but i know enough about them to know that yes, they do NOT like freemasonry, mainly, i think, because of it's strong ties to the occult (i would encourage you to look into some masonic texts before denying that one).
hehe, yeah. 'thou must not be caught hatless at the hour of three o'clock or be launched by catapult' kind of thing. but it is enforced, to some extent, i believe. excommunication is a HUGE deal.it bars one from receiving the body and blood of Christ, which Luther called "the backbone of the church" or something close to it.
yes, like i said before Catholicism's main bone to pick with masonry is it's ties to the occult, ritual magic, Kaballah and the like. this is not what Masonry IS per se but it has links to it. also some teachings involve works riotousness, at least some of the older ones do, which is against the Catholic and almost every Christian faith.
heehee. wouldn't put that past catholics ;)
but it is different, as Emmet McLaughlin (33rd degree) said: "were it merely--as so many believe--an ethical and benevolent society, the only thing concerning it would be whether it fulfills that role in the living present: origin and past history could be matters of no moment. but masonry, in my understanding, is part of a divine quest."
that doesn't sounds like a bit more than grown up 4-H to me, but i'm open minded.
oops, by "riotousness" i meant righteousness. didn't mean to confuse you there :P
It is not about respecting it's own tenents over anything, it is actually a respect FOR the church that it does not try to tell the Churches followers, what is down to the church to tell.
I cannot see how a church, or religion for that matter, can dislike a group due to Occult actions, do they not know what the word means. There was a time before hollywood where LOL.
It is laughable with this particaluar exaample, seeing as they punished them by ex-communication which in turn means no holy communion, which is basically only those who are "members" can receive it. What is a descriptive word that means to only reveal, only give, and/or only teach the initiated, oh yer, OCCULT LOL religion in its action of not accepting people unless they follow their faith is Occult. LOL HA HA HA
I haven't seen any current, or past ceremony of the 3 degrees of Freemasonry that are righteous in any way, shape or form... hmmm nope definitely can't think of any version of the 3 degrees that with proper understanding would promotea righteuos intention,meaning,message... Maybe you could enligten me, although I know not of a version of Freemasonry that I have not read, inlcuding the original ceremonies and the first third degree ceremony...
Emmett is one person who is/was a Freemason, and he is also only talking and to quote "but masonry, in my understanding"
This is not Freemasonry teaches, Freemasonry says, Freemasonry promotes. It is ONE INDIVIDUAL Freemason out of millions who has put pen to paper to write about his personal interpretation, much the same as Pike did, Mackey did, Hall did etc etc
I am sure my intepretation/understanding of the bible is very different to many, and if I were to put pen to paper and pen an article, would everyone suddenly believe what I write? No of course not, so why do people seem to take absolutely anything someone pens about Freemasonry, especially if it can be used negatively, as gospel.
And yes I get the irony of the fact I am hopefull about people believing me... ;-)
now now, let's not be postmodern. it isn't pretty...but actually divinity (depending on your definition) requires much bending
okay, but the GENERAL definition is as i said, and from any religion's point of view (excepting the occult itself) it is a VERY bad thing. but it's not the initiation thing, or even the little "so mote et be" thing (although both are, at least in part, derived from occultic ancestry). there are things deeper into it such as the "mysteries" and such. masonry also frequently uses inverted pentagrams as symbols, also known as a Sigil of Baphomet. i won't even start on the other stuff because i would be going all day.
yes, actually if you are going to speak about things you don't know you should learn about them a little.
okay, thanks for clearing that up.
yes, yes, yes and yes. the locations, members, times and dates don't matter in the least. they make absolutely no difference to anyone, it's that "1%" that makes it secret. you can see every inch of a church or of any organization (except, perhaps, security and/or treasury) and so masonry _is_ a secret society, you have admitted it for a long time, only now that people are really calling you on it are you changing that stance.
It all comes down toperception and understanding.
To take Occult, as this is a topic that seems to be repetitive in any discussion of Freemasonry, but I will play devils advocate,and apply the defiinitions to the church. Seeing as I,not being christian, will probably not be totally knowledgeable on the subject, same as many are not on Freemasonry but yet choose to spout about it. (note these are not true believes of mine, but just as an exercise of reversing roles)
Dictionary Def:
1. of or pertaining to magic, astrology, or any system claiming use or knowledge of secret or supernatural powers or agencies. (is God not supernatural?, is the Church not a system? Does the church not teach about God? Therefore is the church not a system of tuition on the supernatural? Comes down to perspective.
2. beyond the range of ordinary knowledge or understanding; mysterious. (why would we need to attend church if understanding God, or understanding the Bible, was of ordinary understanding. Why would we need "senior" persons ruling on what verses mean?)
3. secret; disclosed or communicated only to the initiated. (Holy Communion is only for those who have entered into Christianity via baptism/christianing, which is an initiatic rite)
4. hidden from view. (I have asked to sit on the voting in of the new pope, but apparently it's is a private affair I cannot watch)
There are additional variations of the above http://www.dictionary.com
So Mote It Be, is no different to Amen Ra, the original Amen adapted by Christianity
I haven't seen an inverted Pentegram in Freemasonry, I have seen a 5 pointed star, but never one inverted. And lets not forget the inverted Pentegram has only been considered Evil for the past 200 years, long after Freemasonry and it's symbols were created.It was in the mid-19th century further distinction developed amongst occultists regarding the pentagram's orientation. With a single point upwards it depicted spirit presiding over the four elements of matter, and was essentially "good". However the other way up was considered evil.
Although versions of the Sigil of Baphomet appear as early as the 1897 book “La Clef de la Magie Noire” by Stanislas de Guaita, the variant in common use today was designed for use by the Church of Satan, and is known as the Hell's Kitchen Baphomet. This variant is copyrighted by the Church of Satan and cannot legally be reproduced without permission. Historic variants are in the public domain.
You can see every inch of a masonic temple as well my friend. Go to Grand Lodge of England and they will even give you a tour. Want to see my temple, we have an open lodge every October by all means come along and you can look in every cupoboard, under the chairs, see us in all our regalia and ask any question you like. Most lodges hold open days once a year, to try and show we are not secret, there isn't really anything else we can do. Yes, we keep certain things to ourselves, doesn't everyone, every organisation, every group? Is it so bad because we openly say we have secrets? Try walking straight into the vatican and entering any room you wish and any time... What people frown at Freemasonry for can be found absolutely everywhere, in any group, and organisation you look at. When any group/org meets for matters of that group/org they all close their doors!! Freemasonry is not different.
The content of our rituals are not secret, but we keep to ourselves for the benefit of those who wish to join as surprise, unknowing, and not knowing are all elements that improve the experience. There are certain modes of recognition that are secret, one sign, token and word for each degrees, so that 3 signs, 3 tokens, and 3 words. Woohoo thats a lot of secrets LOL, but in all seriousness these have been exposed so many times you can hardly call them secret. We haven't changed the words, the signs or the tokens even though they have been exposed over and over again. Ever wondered why? How about I tell you. It is not what we are keeping secret that is in important, it is the action of keeping the secret! Freemasonry promotes and teaches moral behaviour, honesty, trustworthyness etc what better way to test this than say "keep this bit a secret"
Freemasonry is no more "secret organisation" than the Knights of Columbus, the churches version. Infact the KoC are more selective of it's members and also require the keeping of secrets! Maybe the church should clean it's own house before pointing the fingers at others.
wow, you guys really like your definitions ;)
OK, once again, if you asked the average person on the street about the occult he would most likely say that it was bad, connected with Satanism and the dark arts. all in all not a good thing, especially for a Christian. this is the definition i am going by, and this is the definition by which masonry is linked to The Occult as a whole.
wtf? Amen is a Hebrew word for agreement, not a link to Ra, sorry. any scholar will correct you on that one.
also "so mote et be" is linked almost exclusively to masonry and (dark) occult.
no, the inverted pentagram has been considered evil for quite a while, as the pentagram was first used around 3000 BC in Sumer, and as it was used positively the inversion is opposite, whatever definition you are going by. so, we have established that the pentagram was around *long* before masonry. it is used several places in masonry, perhaps not in the lower levels but in many texts and whatnot. it is used with masonry, and it is evil. period.
and that has...what to do with this? sorry, i just don't get it.
of course! i know! but your whole denying that is is a secret society is stupid, pardon my bluntness. you can walk into any ceremony in the Vatican (where security permits) and you could easily see any ritual on TV or whatever other than such things as the pope elections and stuff (until afterward). you keep things secret, part of what you do. i know, I've been to open houses and watched the people get red faced because i dare question the roots of their "brotherhood." i don't care about the temple, or the members, or the aprons or any of the other nonsense, i care about the rites, because therein lies the heart of masonry, the roots, the deeper parts. this is hidden, it is secret. SECRET. none of this coy "we keep things to ourselves" stuff. some of it IS A SECRET thereby making you a secret society. there is nothing really wrong with this, but it would be nice if you didn't try to lie to the public. we're not all as stupid as you may think.
"The content of our rituals are not secret, but we keep to ourselves"
this statement is a contradiction in terms. i am sorry, i cannot argue with incoherence, but i can say that not all your rituals have been exposed, other than the initiation. some have claimed to and there are of course a million retarded books about it. go into Barnes&Noble and look at their world history section, it's full of crap about the masons, most of it fiction that the idiots are trying to pass off as an "expose".
really? i've never heard this. what secrets do they keep? I'm not Catholic and I'm not horribly fond of the Catholic church myself. KoC however does not have ties to the occult and has never killed anyone, although I'm sure you'll get pissed off because of a (ooo!) reference to Morgan. and, KoC will will not take members of other faiths. i would have no problem with masonry if it only took deists or something, but as it is i am not fond of it, though as i have said i keep an open mind.
Now this is where I get a little confused myself, I as a Freemason have no problem saying Freemasonry by the CORRECT definition is Occult, the same as by the CORRECT definition so is Catholicism, Christianity, Muslim, and anything that has entry requirements, restrictions, segregation because it's contents are only for those who meet their criteria. Entry by selection is initiation in it's simplest form. However because hollywood, or some strange bloke who drew a weird picture for his book, or [place religious group here] decides they want it to mean something else to suit their needs, we should just change evrything described by it previously to suit the "new" meaning, or should I say limited meaning, of the word...
Not sure what the big hoo ha is about the pentegram and Freemasonry, for one there isn't one? I know over in the states they use it for the Order of the Eastern Star, but that isn't Freemasonry. There would be a blazing star, but that isn't five pointed, nor inverted and a five pointed star isn't a pentegram either. The pentegram has been used many times throughout history, people often call any five pointed shape a pentegram (included the Epiphany Star, Star of David, Seal of Solomon, which I believe comes either 5 or 6 pointed) missing completely the history behind the shape, I am sure you already know so wont bore you with the Venus stuff etc etc which is how the Pentegram came about, and how the shape actually rotates, and how it was used in many orientation, up, down, left, right, bit this way, bit that way etc all meaning Venus, all meaning the same thing. In terms of the symbol (using most common written source, so granted Sumer doesn't get mentioned much, but as Occult is evil because majority of joe schmoe thinks that what he means because thats all they've seen we will apply the same "scientific" logic) it wasn't attributed to evil by the people until it was used for a frontpiece to a rather intriguing book for a new "church" I believe. Also, the dramatisations of the film industry further thrust the shape and it's use for evil into the publics eye.
As for Amen, I guess it would depend on which Scholar I asked as there are also many who attribute the word to Ahmen Ra, and feel it shows where certain faiths are rooted (Tamarian, but I am sure you know that as well)
As for secrecy, we will dance in circles on this as it depends how you look at things, I have told you what is secret in Freemasonry, and you mention Rites? I have told you how many secrets are in Freemasonry and you talk of "higher levels"
You are making a fundamental, and basic error, one that is so simple, and basic,(not meant offensively, just can't see the wood for the trees type thing) that everyone seems to just steam roll past it when ever it is pointed out.
Freemasonry consists of 3 degrees and the Holy Royal Arch, there are NO other rites in Freemasonry, NO other degrees in Freemasonry, NO other levels in Freemasonry.
If you want to talk of 4° - 32° and 33° A&ASR, York Rite, OES, AMD and all those rites that only let Freemasons join, fine, BUT none of them, NONE OF THEM are Freemasonry. Take the beef up with them (that's meant generally and not directly personally to Bob)
Don't get duped by the fact they only let Freemasons join, they are not Freemasonry, they are there own rite, own body, with their own rules, conditions, governing bodies etc
KoC is a carbon copy of Freemasonry, ergo Freemasonry is Occult, so must KoC which is supported by the church, promoted by the church etc.
From what I am told, only thing that changes is they say Jesus Christ after prayers, swear their oath to JC/God, and no man of another faith, or no faith, may join etc. It was created as a direct competitor to Freemasonry, as always the Church saw potentially something else influency peoples choice so automatically tried to stop it so they remained the only voice to be listened to. Not being a firm believer on what the Church tries to make JC, membership isnt open to me, so as many do with Freemasonry, I can ONLY go on hear say, whispers, and the words of others, but at least like others I admit it LOL
You are correct, KoC hasn't been linked with any murders, pillaging, forced confessions, shootings, etc etc, but the Church it supports and represents has, but past is past when it comes to that, forgive and forget, it was a test, blah blah blah. I am sure you've heard all that dribble when one tries to explain the numerous deeds committed in the "name of God", just look at Science, the churches biggest victim LOL.
Freemasonry's 300+ year existance being tarnished by ONE heavily debated occurance in America, but thats America it's gotta have drama, gotta be bigger, better, faster, it's the American way...
ONE recent association by a film of Jack the Ripper (who is also associated with Royal Family, Local MD, Butchers and all sorts of people)
ONE association in Italy, which if memory serves me correctly, was not Freemasonry as we generally know it, but reference the politcally fuelled splinter group, of no affiliation or link, P2 and all that.
By your own words Freemasonry is an organisation with secrets, which I CANNOT argue with, but the organisation itself is NOT SECRET else you WOULDN'T KNOW ABOUT IT...
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